Wilderness Systems Radar 115 vs Old Town Topwater PDL Angler?

[GunTotnHippie]

Hello All! Just like the title says I am trying to figure out which kayak to buy. There are no demos/dealers within 2-3 hours that have either kayak to demo. I know the Topwater PDL isn't out yet so I've been looking for the Predator PDL version as a comparison because its the same drive.

I am looking for the lightest easiest to carry with the option to go between peddling, paddling and motorized. Stability is important but still want to be able to paddle in the river in my backyard. Access to some rivers means I am carrying the kayak or dragging it. I am a minimalist fisherman so all the extra storage just adds weight for me. Without feeling the gear ratio of each kayak I like to get some feedback from both sides if possible.
Here is what I have put together so far...

Old Town TopWater PDL Angler
79lbs
L 10' 6"
W 36"
Gearing 10.3:1
Draft 6"
Top Speed 5.5
Accessories: Fishfinder GPS, Pedal, paddle
Extras: Drive Floats, Transducer mount
What I like most: light weight, stackable (will be buying more for kids), price, comes with drive, comes with $275 fish finder, stability 36" width
Cons: Being new and untested, no swapable foot pad for river rafting (i can probably mod one though fairly easy), no height adjustable seat (Old Town says its designed for peddling but no mention of paddling)
Notes: Gearing seems like it will produce more torque due to the lower gearing, wider beam maybe be harder to paddle?

Wilderness Systems Radar 115
85lbs
L 11' 8"
W 34.5"
Gear Ratio 6:1 14x17 2 bladed
Side Handles: Yes / Inside
Extras: Has paddle holder upfront, Height Adjustable Seat
What I like the most: ability to mod it with a trolling motor and the seat height adjust-ability for rivers and large body water, drive comes up with single press of the foot
Cons: weight
Notes: Gearing sounds like it will be easier to paddle long distance

[yakscientist]

I haven't used either of these kayaks but I know you could also throw a hobie revo 11, a native slayer propel 10, or a hobie compass into the mix as well. All 3 of those kayaks are lightweight (around 70-75 pounds with the drive and seat, many boats weigh that much without those 2 items added in), and pedal drives. I bet the revo 11 would be very easy to paddle since it's fairly narrow and lightweight.

[belairfishing]

I don't have a pedal kayak (yet!) but I have a Wilderness Systems Ride 115. I will tell you this - you will not use the front paddle holder as much as you think, and the seat is AMAZING! The high setting will allow you to keep two small dry tackle boxes under the seat, and if you like to travel light, there is also some built-in storage between the seat back and the straps.

[GunTotnHippie]

I haven't used either of these kayaks but I know you could also throw a hobie revo 11, a native slayer propel 10, or a hobie compass into the mix as well. All 3 of those kayaks are lightweight (around 70-75 pounds with the drive and seat, many boats weigh that much without those 2 items added in), and pedal drives. I bet the revo 11 would be very easy to paddle since it's fairly narrow and lightweight.

I rented 3 Hobies (Compass, Revo 11 and the tandem) all of which had bad standing platforms. The rudder on the compass was awesome but the rudders on the rest sucked. We were constantly pulling the rudder up and down if anything touched them. The drives were pretty cool but reversing was a PITA. By the time I got the thing in reverse I was hitting an object. I am sure I would get better with more practice but I decided that until Hobie comes out with an easier way to reverse I am looking at bicycle drives. Native isn't on my list because I don't like the drive system as it makes way too much noise. The 3 that I have in mind are: Topwater PDL, Radar 115 and the Frontier 10 Nucanoe. The big unknown though with the Frontier 10 is the drive system. From what I have seen they seem a bit slow. I am sure there is a lot of power loss due to the cable and drive system.

[Mark]

I rented 3 Hobies (Compass, Revo 11 and the tandem) all of which had bad standing platforms. The rudder on the compass was awesome but the rudders on the rest sucked. We were constantly pulling the rudder up and down if anything touched them. .

I'm not sure why that was happening. The rudder you speak of locks into place by wedging the "Down" pull cord into position. It doesn't retract unless that pull cord is released from the wedge and the "Up" cord is pulled. In fact, the rudder has a shear pin to protect the entire mechanism from damage if it hits something hard. I've bumped obstructions many times with both my Revos but I've never had to reset the rudder in place.

Good luck in your search.

[smithmal]

Questions I have for you:

1. Have you ever owned a fishing kayak before?
2. Why specifically did you choose these two models as your comparative choices?
3. Is cost an issue for you?
4. How big of a guy are you?
5. How will you be transporting your yak?
6. What type of water will you be fishing in?
7. Do you want, or intend to stand when fishing?
8. Which mode of operation would you likely use the most (paddle/pedal/motor)?
9. What sort of weight capacity do you need to have for your yak?

I've ridden both (from a pedal perspective). Personally I liked the OT over the WS as it had a better drive system, better mobility (had a tighter turn axis) and was more stable. However, 10'6 yak is way too small for a decent all day fishing yak. I spoke to one fishing yak vendor who was also a fishing pro and was a big guy like me and he said he wouldn't buy a yak under 13' due to storage, stability and weight capacities necessary to comfortably fish all day. The RADARs are decent but were a little too tippy for me (I'm 250lbs with not great balance).

I went to a kayak demo in Southern VA (Farmville) and rode 15 different kayaks models from all the reputable vendors (OT, Wilderness, Hobie, Jackson, Native) to compare and contrast the pros and cons of each. You'll never find the perfect kayak however you can find one that ticks off most of your needs. In terms of choosing your model, this YT poster gives an excellent blow-by-blow process for choosing a yak model: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpL1iYy4t7M.

Whichever you choose, once you've settled on your top two, go find a vendor that has both and spend a day demoing both on the same day. Paddlesports in Lewes, DE I believe has both of these models and is only 2 hours away from the DMV area.

Also, purchase in the fall as you'll get great clearance prices and some unfortunate souls will be unloading their pricey toys for dirt cheap b/c they didn't think through their lifestyle vs. kayak fishing very well. If you've never owned a fishing kayak before, go purchase a beater on CL and make sure this is a sport that you want to invest a lot of upfront money in. As I mentioned, come October/November you'll see a lot of people unloading their kayaks b/c they went hardcore into the sport without appreciating the effort it takes to get on and off the water.

smithmal

[yakscientist]

Smithmal said it all. I'll add that the fall is also a great time to shop because that tends to be the best time of year for striped bass fishing, from a kayak at least. I've had fall days where I will catch 30-40 fish in a single morning, or will catch 5-10 fish but get my keepers quickly, and switch to big baits after that (less fish but usually larger). It'll be nice to get a feel for your kayak and actually have a good chance at catching fish, so you can see how you deal with fish while pedaling or paddling, and where to mount accessories like rod holders. Many stores also take off the rental fee of a kayak from it's purchase price, if it's within a month of when you rented it. I think Delaware paddlesports offers that. So if you narrow it down, it'd def be worth it to rent one for a while and then decide if you like it (and not lose money)

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

[jmt1980]

I rented 3 Hobies (Compass, Revo 11 and the tandem) all of which had bad standing platforms. The rudder on the compass was awesome but the rudders on the rest sucked. We were constantly pulling the rudder up and down if anything touched them. The drives were pretty cool but reversing was a PITA. By the time I got the thing in reverse I was hitting an object. I am sure I would get better with more practice but I decided that until Hobie comes out with an easier way to reverse I am looking at bicycle drives. Native isn't on my list because I don't like the drive system as it makes way too much noise. The 3 that I have in mind are: Topwater PDL, Radar 115 and the Frontier 10 Nucanoe. The big unknown though with the Frontier 10 is the drive system. From what I have seen they seem a bit slow. I am sure there is a lot of power loss due to the cable and drive system.

Do some research on the Native drives - there's alot of people that clean the grease off their upper/lower gears and fill both cavities with gear oil. It resists water damage if the gasket does spring a leak and it's dead quiet. I was blown away at the difference and my drive was brand new.

[J. Rentch]

Question on the oil- what brand/weight do you use? Do you completely fill the upper & lower units or just lube them well?

[J.A. Veil]

Do some research on the Native drives - there's alot of people that clean the grease off their upper/lower gears and fill both cavities with gear oil. It resists water damage if the gasket does spring a leak and it's dead quiet. I was blown away at the difference and my drive was brand new.

I know of some Native owners (but not necessarily "a lot of people" as noted by jmt1980) who have filled their Propel drives with liquid oil instead of using the recommended lube. For the most part, those who made that change seem to be satisfied with the modification. One thing to consider is that modifying your lubricant in that manner may invalidate the two-year warranty Native offers on its Propel drive. I cannot speak definitively for Native, but suspect that any damage caused by using a different type of lubrication system would not be covered. If any Native users elect to make the change, they do so at their own risk.

I have owned two Native kayaks with Propel drives. They are complex mechanical devices with moving parts. Propel drives, like any other pedal-drive system, must receive regular maintenance to ensure good operation and durability. At times, some Propel drives can get noisy. Generally fresh lubrication helps. I have pedaled next to Hobie users and heard a repetitive mechanical whooshing sound from the Mirage drives. This is not surprising -- mechanical devices do make some noise and require periodic lubrication to keep them smooth and quiet.

[jmt1980]

I'm only trying to convey MY perspective - "some" and "a lot of people" could be the same, its all a matter of perspective...

Personally I only know of one other person who has converted to oil. We both have the same opinions of the change and we both consider it an upgrade. We both cleaned the lithium grease off our gears and filled the entire upper and lower cavity with 75W -90 gear oil (Mobile 1 full synthetic) to ensure max lubrication just to be safe. It made the drive noticeably smoother while pedaling and reduced audible noise by 50% or more (my guestimate). My drive was brand new (2 trips on it) before I made the switch and the improvement was very noticeable even on a brand new drive. I'd recommend it to anyone especially someone outside of the warranty, and if anyone is interested in inspecting my drive or wants to swap drives on the water some time I'm more than willing to oblige...

[Slough Sleigher]

Hello All! Just like the title says I am trying to figure out which kayak to buy. There are no demos/dealers within 2-3 hours that have either kayak to demo. I know the Topwater PDL isn't out yet so I've been looking for the Predator PDL version as a comparison because its the same drive.

I am looking for the lightest easiest to carry with the option to go between peddling, paddling and motorized. Stability is important but still want to be able to paddle in the river in my backyard. Access to some rivers means I am carrying the kayak or dragging it. I am a minimalist fisherman so all the extra storage just adds weight for me. Without feeling the gear ratio of each kayak I like to get some feedback from both sides if possible.
Here is what I have put together so far...

Old Town TopWater PDL Angler
79lbs
L 10' 6"
W 36"
Gearing 10.3:1
Draft 6"
Top Speed 5.5
Accessories: Fishfinder GPS, Pedal, paddle
Extras: Drive Floats, Transducer mount
What I like most: light weight, stackable (will be buying more for kids), price, comes with drive, comes with $275 fish finder, stability 36" width
Cons: Being new and untested, no swapable foot pad for river rafting (i can probably mod one though fairly easy), no height adjustable seat (Old Town says its designed for peddling but no mention of paddling)
Notes: Gearing seems like it will produce more torque due to the lower gearing, wider beam maybe be harder to paddle?

Wilderness Systems Radar 115
85lbs
L 11' 8"
W 34.5"
Gear Ratio 6:1 14x17 2 bladed
Side Handles: Yes / Inside
Extras: Has paddle holder upfront, Height Adjustable Seat
What I like the most: ability to mod it with a trolling motor and the seat height adjust-ability for rivers and large body water, drive comes up with single press of the foot
Cons: weight
Notes: Gearing sounds like it will be easier to paddle long distance

I have a Wilderness Radar 135 which I initially bought w/out pedal drive as it was still in R&D and it allowed be a few more months to accumulate the disposable income to purchase the Helix peddle drive. I found this paddled kayak to handle surprisingly well in the surf and in a following sea. It was controllable and could be comfortably broached during heavier surf landings. Adding all the fishing gear that I don't need but usually hoard around with me and I lost some of that agility. Adding peddles and a rudder to the Radar is a definite upgrade. By my estimation, peddling extended my range four fold over arm paddling. My personal best day was 23.4 miles by GPS in the bay over 9 hours with out feeling too tapped out (60 year old here) so for me the final peddle cadence and peddle pressure are ideal for me, my weight and my physical condition. I say that because comparing ratios in peddle drives is nothing like comparing ratios in fishing reels. The gear drive ratio is only a small portion of the overall propulsion formula which is rather significantly influenced by number of blades, pitch, length and profile of blades as well as surface area of submerged unit. Anyway I ramble... I use the adjustable seat feature to my advantage by changing up the height a couple times a trip. Being able to change the angle of your hips, knees and back really helps to eliminate hot spots that might otherwise end your day early. I find the width to be about as narrow as I like and still feel reasonably comfortable standing to sight and cast. Even loaded with excessive gear the peddle drive moves the boat very well but remember the longer hull is going to move through the water more efficiently than an eleven footer. The Radar 135 is far from perfect but over the past couple years I have made many modifications to improve it for my purposes where I fish bay, ocean, flats and saltwater sloughs. It remains my first choice as an all around saltwater fishing tool. As you have said your river fishing preference are minimalist so you will really be amazed with the performance of either one of your choices, but for the money, you do need to get out on the water with the peddle drives to compare. Delaware Paddle Sports in Lewes DE is a good place to make your pilgrimage and try some boats on one of their many demo days. Besides, DE being sales tax free, it might just pay for the trip.

[GunTotnHippie]

Questions I have for you:

1. Have you ever owned a fishing kayak before?
2. Why specifically did you choose these two models as your comparative choices?
3. Is cost an issue for you?
4. How big of a guy are you?
5. How will you be transporting your yak?
6. What type of water will you be fishing in?
7. Do you want, or intend to stand when fishing?
8. Which mode of operation would you likely use the most (paddle/pedal/motor)?
9. What sort of weight capacity do you need to have for your yak?

I've ridden both (from a pedal perspective). Personally I liked the OT over the WS as it had a better drive system, better mobility (had a tighter turn axis) and was more stable. However, 10'6 yak is way too small for a decent all day fishing yak. I spoke to one fishing yak vendor who was also a fishing pro and was a big guy like me and he said he wouldn't buy a yak under 13' due to storage, stability and weight capacities necessary to comfortably fish all day. The RADARs are decent but were a little too tippy for me (I'm 250lbs with not great balance).

I went to a kayak demo in Southern VA (Farmville) and rode 15 different kayaks models from all the reputable vendors (OT, Wilderness, Hobie, Jackson, Native) to compare and contrast the pros and cons of each. You'll never find the perfect kayak however you can find one that ticks off most of your needs. In terms of choosing your model, this YT poster gives an excellent blow-by-blow process for choosing a yak model: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpL1iYy4t7M.

Whichever you choose, once you've settled on your top two, go find a vendor that has both and spend a day demoing both on the same day. Paddlesports in Lewes, DE I believe has both of these models and is only 2 hours away from the DMV area.

Also, purchase in the fall as you'll get great clearance prices and some unfortunate souls will be unloading their pricey toys for dirt cheap b/c they didn't think through their lifestyle vs. kayak fishing very well. If you've never owned a fishing kayak before, go purchase a beater on CL and make sure this is a sport that you want to invest a lot of upfront money in. As I mentioned, come October/November you'll see a lot of people unloading their kayaks b/c they went hardcore into the sport without appreciating the effort it takes to get on and off the water.

smithmal

Awesome responses! Thank you very much! It is much appreciated as I hate loosing more money on another yak that I don't really like.

1. Have you ever owned a fishing kayak before?
A: Yes, I had a 2017 Lure 13.5 I just sold. It was nice stable yak but it weighed too much and was and the length made it too hard for me to load it by myself. Seems like the 13' is about a foot too long for me to handle without dragging them.

2. Why specifically did you choose these two models as your comparative choices?
A: Weight first then options (Stand-ability, ability to remove drive relatively fast, speed)

3. Is cost an issue for you?
A: Nope, I want the best for what I need. Not going to look at price as an issue this time.

4. How big of a guy are you?
A: 195lbs 5/11

5. How will you be transporting your yak?
A: I have a long bed truck that has the ability to stack 2 kayaks (one smaller) at the bottom and 2 at the top. We currently load up 3 (1 tandem, 2 kids ) yaks when we go.

6. What type of water will you be fishing in?
A: Large lakes and rivers. Maybe a single trip to the ocean per year.

7. Do you want, or intend to stand when fishing?
A: Yes, please. This would be great but realizing this is where the big divide happens.

8. Which mode of operation would you likely use the most (paddle/pedal/motor)?
A: We want to go to utilize pedal, motor and sailing as we have a huge lake 15 minutes from us that would be great for sailing. I will only paddle when I need to (drive breaks or going towards the bank).

9. What sort of weight capacity do you need to have for your yak?
A: Not sure maybe 300-350lbs. I am a minimalist fisherman. 2 rods a milk crate that fits all my tackle, some drinks and food, phone. I may get into a fishfinder for gps, depth and building maps and way points.

We rented the Revo 13 and the compass again today. The Revo 13 was about .2 mph faster than the Compass. I could do the Revo at around 3.8-4mph at a decent pace and up to 6.6mph when I was really pushing it (although that was short lived). I was also able to pick up the Revo and Compass and load it by myself although the Revo's length made it slighly akward and I was pushing a little too much trying to get it on top of the upper bar. I am now thinking about renting the Hobie Outback to test it against the Compass. I tried standing on the compass again but there is no way I would feel comfortable doing that. I didn't even attempt it in the Revo although I could sit on the side with my feet hanging over without tipping it all the way. When I took the Hobies back to the rental place I asked to look at the compass side by side. The Outback was much taller although the Compass was wider it seemed like the Outback would be sturdier. I was also able to pick the Outback high enough to get it to the top rack. If the Topwater is going to be a slug compared to the Compass I think I am going to have to rethink that purchase. I think a great length for what I want is around 11-12 feet and no more than around 80lbs. 80 lbs (fitted weight) seems about the max weight I want to lift per kayak. My wife and kids can get ready and I can load them all if they were around that weight. My wife and I had a good conversation on what was important for us. Here is what we came up with...

1. We want to tour with them. We have one of the top 40 largest lakes in the country in our back yard and we want to be able to see it.
2. Both my daughters and wife want a peddle kayak after using the Revo 13 (although I would rather they step down to the 11 so it made it slightly easier to transport). The boys can be towed behind us until they get older.
3. They must weigh under 80-85lbs fitted.
4. I need a fishing yak that I can catch me some pike, kokanee and trout.
5. It would be great to stand on but this maybe cancel out 1 and 3.

I want to have my cake and eat it too and not buy two kayaks per person. lol

[Mark]

I want to have my cake and eat it too and not buy two kayaks per person. lol

That's difficult. That's why so many folks here list more than one kayak. It's simply the nature of the game. No kayak is perfect for all situations and every need. But the good news is that each of the boats you've tested is excellent and you'll learn to enjoy its strengths and manage its shortcomings regardless of which one you choose.

Good luck,

[smithmal]

Sorry... for some reason I didn't notice this thread was answered. Did you decide on what yak to go for?

Like Mark said, you're going to have a hard time getting all your boxes check off. For good stand up stability, you're going to need a +100lbs yak. I would definitely get one that is at least 13'. The problem is, that your stacking them into a flat bed truck which will become old and cumbersome fast. The general equation for yaking is this:

if effort > fun eventually you will go less and less and your yak will stay in storage more and more. I would always advise fun > effort to ensure you can get on and off the water as quickly as possible (as well as storing, and packing/unpacking when you get/leave home).

The way I see it, if you want stability with motor/pedal capability, you'll need a trailer. Motor and pedals are good if you need distance. If you want to have fun with kids you obviously don't want distance due to safety concerns. Heavy yaks will get more and more of a problem as you get older and/or start having shoulder, knee and back issues (i.e. getting older).

You probably don't want to hear this, but if you want to have lower weight (to reduce effort) and include distance (i.e. motor) my recommendation would be to get a lightweight canoe with a trolling motor and lithium battery. Obviously you'll lose the "stand-up and fish" ability, but you'll gain tandem benefits. Personally, canoe fishing is the way to go on gentle lakes (if that is what you intend to do) especially involving a family. You can get a very stable canoe that is sub 70lbs, 13' - 16' for dirt cheap (sub $500) on CL if you wait for the deals to come in this fall/winter. These heavy duty "blingged" out kayaks are great for choppier waters, but they are crazy expensive, the pedal and motor technology is still fairly new (i.e. there will be bugs) and I'm not sure that's the way to go if you want to boat with your family on a lake.

smithmal