The Kayak Fishing Industry In General

[silasvirus82]

Coming from a perspective of many different interests, I see the kayak fishing industry heading in a direction that might not good for consumers in the short term. I bring up this topic as a partial response to a recent post regarding an issue with Pelicans new Hobie knockoff peddle drive. Upon further research it would appear the user experienced a total failure of the masts under normal circumstances (did not hit an obstruction), rendering their peddle drive completely useless until replacement. Now I don't think this is the end of the world and I'm sure Pelican will work out a solution quickly to keep their reputation intact, but it does raise a concern of how much time this manufacturer put into R&D. I think the Hobie kayaks of late are very well built machines with at this point a long track record of positive reviews. Especially the pre-180 drive boats after the scupper hole reinforcement, but even that statement just goes to show you their is still a lot of trial and error in this industry. I don't view this as a bad thing per say, it just means there is still lots of room for improvement. In general though, I think Hobie is building one of the better peddle drive kayaks and continue to be the trail blazer of the industry. Props for that!

In addition to kayak fishing, I also enjoy shooting sports, archery, mountain biking, skiing, and many others. All of these industries have a much longer track record and have for the most part worked out many of the kinks within their respective fields. With the exception of traditional archery equipment, guns have probably been around the longest and what I see happening there is when a manufacture finds a winning recipe they sell the crap out of it for as long as they can without changing a thing, reducing costs to consumers along the way. I use the Ruger 10/22 or Mark IV as an example. Those two guns have been around forever and for the most part remained unchanged. If it works, it works. Now the Mark IV has changed some in recent years with easier disassembly basically, but overall they are still selling the same guns that made them famous many years ago. On the other side of the spectrum is the archery industry, specifically compound bows. Every year all the major manufacturers come out with their latest and greatest and every year the people that have to have it go out and buy a new bow, or three. Within a year those bows are "obsolete" and up for sale at 25-50% off what they paid for it. I believe the compound bow technology pretty much peaked ten years ago, but there are some minor improvements here and there. I can't tell you how many times I've read people say they wish they kept such and such bow that they owned five years ago because nothing since then has really been an improvement for them, and in a lot of cases it's been a downgrade. The archery industry is now a giant marketing gimmick. Nobody is really doing anything better than anyone else, but they have to convince consumers that they are to keep sales flowing. I get that. Savvy consumers pick up all these one-two year old used bows or get a "budget" bow that for all practical purposes works just as well.

The kayak fishing industry is definitely not where the archery industry is yet, but it could be in the next ten-twenty years. Once Hobie perfects the 360 drive what else is there? It's a fairly simple machine. Skies haven't changed much in probably close to 20 years now, but those wear out regularly and style is a major factor. I don't see kayak fisherman caring too much about the artwork on their boat. My hope is that the kayak fishing industry follows the gun industry and starts making quality products while reducing prices. Guns are much cheaper now than they were 50 years ago relatively speaking, and the quality has arguably gotten better. There are always exceptions. What is happening right now in the kayak industry is more manufacturers are cranking out something new almost every year, and there is no way the R&D can keep up with that. Prices are getting higher for some, just look at the price on a new 360 Pro Angler, but I don't think that is sustainable. With other manufacturers building budget options it's only a matter of time before they work out their respective kinks. Hobies patents will all run out eventually, and then what? Is the kayak industry going to turn into a marketing competition or who can build the finest boat for the least amount of money competition. How do we as consumers steer it away from a marketing competition?

[mchottie]

I think there will always be innovation no matter what the industry is.

Just look at the newly unveiled C8 Series Corvette. The entire lineage has been front engine, rear-wheel-drive; The C8 generation will be rear engine, rear-wheel-drive, ala Porsche / Ferrari etc.

There's always room for innovation & improvement (Hobie 360 Angler, JonnyBoat)

But there will always be the best seller budget people mover from point-A-to-point-B (i.e. Honda Civic, Toyota Corolla)

[silasvirus82]

There will always be innovation yes, but eventually you reach the point of diminishing returns. The simpler the item, the sooner you reach that point. A car is not even close in comparison to a kayak, or gun, or anything else I mentioned in terms of complexity. It has numerous very complicated systems working in harmony. Electrical, drive train, suspension, structural, safety, the list goes on. Not to mention a car consumes some sort of fuel. A hammer has not seen a lot of innovation since it's inception, but yes there has been some.

The only major innovation I see left for fishing kayaks is perfecting the propulsion system and possibly a new material to form the hull, but those are pretty much well established at this point in time. Hobie keeps reminding the industry that there is room for improvement though.

[Mark]

You make very good points John.

Indeed, Hobie has produced an excellent product for a long time. The question I have about them is do they set the market or respond to it? A little of both, no doubt.

Many kayak anglers want larger boats and Hobie has obliged them with their PA series. But over the years, even their smaller models, the Revo and Outback, have incurred weight increases to accommodate more comfortable seats and hull changes. My current 2018 Revo weighs at least 10% more than my 2012 model. It will be my last if Hobie keeps increasing its weight. I think Hobie needs to mindful of that trend in its products.

I’ve also long noted that larger fishing kayaks (not just Hobie PAs) appear regularly on the secondary market. That indicates to me that many who wanted the larger kayaks for various reasons, probably stability foremost, soon learned that they also incurred a tradeoff in terms of transportability on land and ease of mobility on the water. Some have to trailer their larger kayaks which reduces their launch possibilities in smaller waters and adds to their cost of ownership. Others add supplemental power because their larger boats are too unwieldy to paddle or pedal, again increasing cost of ownership.

Some of the larger kayaks, the new 360 in particular, have already passed the price point of a well rigged Jon boat. I’ve often wondered how many people selling their larger fishing kayaks replace them with Jon boats.

I can only surmise that Hobie sees a market or believes it can create demand to make the PA 360 a profitable venture. I suspect that the freshwater bass market is greater for boats like the PA 360 than the tidal market. Those anglers are probably seeking a wider platform for standing as they cast. Perhaps they can’t afford a glitter boat so a tricked out Hobie is the next best thing. Personally, I’d look at a Jon boat instead if I was in their shoes.

The good news is that thanks to an expanding marketplace, you can find a fishing kayak to meet your needs, from very simple lightweight paddle kayaks to elaborate pedal-driven alternatives. You can grow with the hobby, moving to larger boats or you can remain static and still have a good time.

I think it is wise for new and even experienced kayak anglers contemplating a kayak purchase to not automatically assume that bigger is better. A smaller paddle boat that gets used regularly will bring you much more enjoyment than a beastly well-optioned pedal boat that stays dry because you soon tire of the effort required to use it. I assume Hobie has that in mind too. If not, they should.

[silasvirus82]

You make very good points John.

Indeed, Hobie has produced an excellent product for a long time. The question I have about them is do they set the market or respond to it? A little of both, no doubt.

Many kayak anglers want larger boats and Hobie has obliged them with their PA series. But over the years, even their smaller models, the Revo and Outback, have incurred weight increases to accommodate more comfortable seats and hull changes. My current 2018 Revo weighs at least 10% more than my 2012 model. It will be my last if Hobie keeps increasing its weight. I think Hobie needs to mindful of that trend in its products.

I’ve also long noted that larger fishing kayaks (not just Hobie PAs) appear regularly on the secondary market. That indicates to me that many who wanted the larger kayaks for various reasons, probably stability foremost, soon learned that they also incurred a tradeoff in terms of transportability on land and ease of mobility on the water. Some have to trailer their larger kayaks which reduces their launch possibilities in smaller waters and adds to their cost of ownership. Others add supplemental power because their larger boats are too unwieldy to paddle or pedal, again increasing cost of ownership.

Some of the larger kayaks, the new 360 in particular, have already passed the price point of a well rigged Jon boat. I’ve often wondered how many people selling their larger fishing kayaks replace them with Jon boats.

I can only surmise that Hobie sees a market or believes it can create demand to make the PA 360 a profitable venture. I suspect that the freshwater bass market is greater for boats like the PA 360 than the tidal market. Those anglers are probably seeking a wider platform for standing as they cast. Perhaps they can’t afford a glitter boat so a tricked out Hobie is the next best thing. Personally, I’d look at a Jon boat instead if I was in their shoes.

The good news is that thanks to an expanding marketplace, you can find a fishing kayak to meet your needs, from very simple lightweight paddle kayaks to elaborate pedal-driven alternatives. You can grow with the hobby, moving to larger boats or you can remain static and still have a good time.

I think it is wise for new and even experienced kayak anglers contemplating a kayak purchase to not automatically assume that bigger is better. A smaller paddle boat that gets used regularly will bring you much more enjoyment than a beastly well-optioned pedal boat that stays dry because you soon tire of the effort required to use it. I assume Hobie has that in mind too. If not, they should.

Unfortunately, I don't think rational thinkers drive markets. People who are swayed by marketing gimmicks, or just have a general impulse to buy things, drive markets because they are the ones doing the majority of the buying. That being said, that is why Hobie and the rest are building some of the boats that they do. I'm guilty of thinking I need more than I do on my kayak, but for me it has more to do with tinkering than it does marketing. Now that my boat is fully tinkered, I've started pulling stuff off to the essentials. This whole thing seems to be a fairly common progression for a lot of folks.

The way for a lot of us to get what we truly need is to go through this phase and support the companies that are paying attention to us. Personally, I feel like Hobie is balancing these two groups of people fairly well. With offerings like the Compass they are providing customers a great boat that will do almost anything their flagship boats can do. Weight is the one area they seem to be ignoring, but the vast majority of customers care more about accessories and features than weight. If you were running a business which group would you listen to?

It'll be interesting to see where this all goes, but there is no denying Hobie is the leader in all of this. The only reactionary thing I've seen Hobie do is the 180 drive, but now that the 360 is a thing we can see that the 180 drive was merely a stepping stone to something greater. I'm a Hobie customer for life.

[yakscientist]

I think you nailed a lot of great points John, and I agree that Hobie is driving the market, and hopefully the future brings the 360 drive to many kayaks that are not only cheaper but lighter also.

On another note, I think one of the main things that kayak technology has given us, is a foray into the world of somewhat portable powerboats. I love the solo skiffs, bote rovers, etc out there, and recently saw a Skanu which is actually a 2 seater that currently weighs about 150 pounds. They're supposedly developing a rotomolded plastic version that should keep weight around 100-110 pounds, which would be awesome. IMO I would never buy anything with a gas motor that couldn't take at least 2 people, that's why the solo skiff doesn't seem right for me. But this Skanu, that's a game changer. I think as we see more and more boats that are less than 150 lbs, with built in wheels or with scupper-like carts, that market will explode as well. I don't like the idea of using a motor for my primary fishing vessel, but it'd be great to have a secondary boat that can carry 2 people, gear, with a small outboard, that I still can transport in my truck bed. It opens up many more launch possibilities, and expands range exponentially. You could find a nice secluded beach spot, launch your craft on a calm day, and zip out to a wreck or reef that's 10 or so miles offshore, which is still possible in a kayak but obviously much more dangerous and time consuming. And launching from the beach eliminates navigating treacherous inlets going from soundside marinas to oceanside fishing spots.

My ultimate fishing vessel would be something like the Skanu that has scupper holes, a drive well that accommodates 1 or 2 different pedal styles, room for at least 2 people, and the option of an outboard motor. Speed wouldn't have to be extreme, so long as it cruises from 10-12 knots fairly efficiently. You would have multiple propulsion options, including motor as backup when you needed to get somewhere quickly. I would almost rather have that, than a fishing machine type center console of 21-25' with dual outboards. Obviously the fishing capabilities are a bit different, but I would argue that if anything, the smaller boat would be more capable, and 100x cheaper to buy and maintain.

What was I trying to say again? I've lost my train of thought. Oh yeah, Hobie rules, and I want more lightweight 2 person boats.

[thedutchtouch]

agreed that the next innovation will/should be decreasing weight without sacrificing structure. . interesting, OP that you're using archery as a comparison, because that's an area where a beginner like myself gets very confused trying to select gear.