Winter Flounder in the Bay (historically anyway)

[boque]

I used to love catching winter flounder and always wondered if there were any in the Chesapeake. A few years ago I did some research and unearthed the attached 1927 report from the U.S. Bureau of Fisheries that discusses the commercial importance of the winter flounder to the bay. I can't attach everything here but on page 170 winter flounder were listed as the 16th biggest fish catch by volume (54,000 lbs), and 17th biggest in value.

According to the report, they were caught from November through April - though only by commercial, not recreational fisherman - and people called them "holibut" or "halibut". They were most common in MD and the hot-spots included Annapolis, Solomons, and Love Point.

I'd never heard of anyone fishing for winter flounder in the bay so back in 2015 I contacted Maryland DNR and asked them about it. They told me there aren't any winter flounder in the bay because we're too far south. I sent them the report and they were stumped, but still insisted they aren't out there.

Has anyone ever caught a winter flounder in the bay - or known of any old-timers who've talked about catching "holibut"?


C.J.
Tarpon 14

[Jigsup]

Wow that’s something. I personally have not heard of winter flounder in the bay. I’ve heard of everything from chomper blues being big and plentiful. In fact so plentiful people were throwing them in dumpsters at boat ramps. Also heard of 15-17 inch spot being caught on the regular back in the day. Never saw either but heard from multiple sources.
I don’t target flounder and have never caught one. Always heard of halibut being in Alaska. Think some call them “doormats”. Definitely curious about what others have to say. Interesting find.
I will write this though, it wouldn’t surprise me if it were a such thing. Chesapeake bay fishery now is much much different then back in the 1920s.

[Big Mike]

I’ve never heard of winter flounder being caught in Maryland. We do catch a few flounder in August and September in some very specific areas in St Mary’s, but they are not an abundant species like they used to be. Catching a keeper is challenging.

[Oldbayrunner]

Here you go....

"Winter flounder move into Chesapeake Bay and its tidal tributaries in December of each year to spawn. They spawn in rivers such as the Chester River, Eastern Bay, Wye River, Miles River, and the Choptank River. They are present in fairly decent numbers, but I know of no recreational anglers that have had success catching them. It could be because they are in a spawning mode. Traditional fishing techniques for winter flounder include: chumming with canned kernel corn and chumming with crushed Quahog clams. You need to use a very small hook and fish an anchored area in relatively shallow water. I hope this information is of some help to you.

Sincerely,

Martin L. Gary
Fisheries Ecologist
Maryland DNR Fisheries Service
Tawes Office Building B-2
Annapolis, MD 21401

There are North Atlantic, Hippoglossus hippoglossus & North Pacific, Hippoglossus stenolepis halibut. I'm more familiar catching the North Pacific ones.

[J.A. Veil]

Winter flounder do live in Maryland waters, but are rarely targeted by recreational anglers. Here is a DNR news report from 2015 about a state record winter halibut caught in June.

Salisbury Angler Sets Winter Flounder Record (maryland.gov)

I have a reference book in my office called Fishes of the Chesapeake Bay. It lists hundreds of species of fish that live in at least some part of the Bay system. I have never seen most of those species in person. But on particularly dry summers, when the salinity rises closer to ocean water, some of the southern species or fully marine species do show up in the bay. One of the fun aspects of fishing is that you may be 99% certain about what you are likely to catch. Every so often, the unexpected 1% shows up. In order to catch that 1%, you need to be out there actually fishing.

[Memory Lapse]

Never seen one in the Bay, and doubt they could survive the current conditions, indeed, places in NY where they were plentiful a few decades ago, are almost void of them . We go up to Boston to catch them once or twice a year, and it's still ok up there. The fishing at the turn of the century through the early part of the 1900s was completely different. Someone caught a big Atlantic halibut out of NJ last year, called it "The unicorn" delicious.

[boque]

I agree with the consensus that the bay has changed over the last 100 years, and some species like flounder are likely just more rare now.

But, I'm also intrigued by DNR's note that flounder are in the bay to spawn, but not feed and that's why recreational anglers don't have any luck catching them. Even the 1927 booklet said that the catch was only commercial, not recreational.

I looked-up more NOAA papers that just focus on winter flounder (https://www.researchgate.net/publica...haracteristics). They say that after flounder finish spawning they hang-around inshore until the water temperature reaches about 60 degrees and then migrate offshore to deep water.

Three things stuck-out to me about these studies:
-The MD record fish that John referenced was caught in 140 feet of water 26 miles offshore in June, which fits this pattern

-Flounder eat when they migrate after spawning so it may be possible to catch them on their way out of the bay

-Most interestingly, flounder travel in 60 degree water, about the same temp that the striped bass look for to spawn - and stripers are one of the primary predators of adult winter flounder. That's a pretty big coincidence. Are the migrating bass feasting on flounder as they travel? If so, could we use flounder-like lures to catch striped bass in the spring?

C.J.

[Memory Lapse]

I agree with the consensus that the bay has changed over the last 100 years, and some species like flounder are likely just more rare now.

But, I'm also intrigued by DNR's note that flounder are in the bay to spawn, but not feed and that's why recreational anglers don't have any luck catching them. Even the 1927 booklet said that the catch was only commercial, not recreational.

I looked-up more NOAA papers that just focus on winter flounder (https://www.researchgate.net/publica...haracteristics). They say that after flounder finish spawning they hang-around inshore until the water temperature reaches about 60 degrees and then migrate offshore to deep water.

Three things stuck-out to me about these studies:
-The MD record fish that John referenced was caught in 140 feet of water 26 miles offshore in June, which fits this pattern

-Flounder eat when they migrate after spawning so it may be possible to catch them on their way out of the bay
-Most interestingly, flounder travel in 60 degree water, about the same temp that the striped bass look for to spawn - and stripers are one of the primary predators of adult winter flounder. That's a pretty big coincidence. Are the migrating bass feasting on flounder as they travel? If so, could we use flounder-like lures to catch striped bass in the spring?

C.J.

If there is one thing that rock do that makes some folks think that there is something challenging about catching them, is that they will at times key in on one particular forage or size of forage, and I'm sure flounder looking things will catch them. I don't think there are enough flounder, specially winter ones, that would make them key in on them enough to make it a worthwhile effort. I have live lined summer flounder for rock, and that worked great up in NY and NJ.
Winter flounder do indeed migrate long distances from off shore to estuaries. Some of the biggest ones I've seen have come from deep water while cod or sea bass fishing. And they do feed voraciously before and after spawning in the shallows.
Just to be clear we are talking about winter flounder, not flounder in the winter, yes?

[boque]

Sorry for the confusion. Yes, I meant "winter flounder" - the ones w/o teeth.

[Memory Lapse]

Sorry for the confusion. Yes, I meant "winter flounder" - the ones w/o teeth.

No worries, just making sure. Let me see if I can find something more current. I'm still thinking it would be very difficult to run across one in the Bay.

[rugbyfish]

My dad and I have caught a handful of winter flounder in the MD/DE surf in late November, but not in the last five years or so. I had no idea they spawned in the bay. Learn something new every day!

[Redfish12]

I think I read somewhere that the Choptank was one of the last bastions of winter flounder spawning grounds in the bay. Likely warming water temps and degradation of habitat has contributed to their decline. To me the commercial landings vs recreational seems to be indicative of the challenge of fishing rod and reel in the 20s for these little nibblers and the likelihood that the comms were using nets or some other sort of gear to catch. I do love fishing for them up in MA though!

[Memory Lapse]

and the likelihood that the comms were using nets or some other sort of gear to catch.

Rolling gear. Draggers really do a number on many fisheries.