Will we ever go back?

[FishMoken]

So I’ve listened to a few different podcasts from blackwaters edge to paddlers playbook and they talk about kayaking from time to time. From this of us that have been doing it for some time we have seen boats grow and grow. While this might not be a bad thing as it seems to gain more and more new kayakers, my question is will we ever see a sub 30 inch kayak again? Paddlers playbook brought up a good point with a simple question, what is the most important thing to new kayak fisherman? With most answering stability. This leads the market to more and more wide stable platforms. But when will it become over kill? I’m seeing kayaks over 36” wide. How many true paddlers are there really still out there? I snagged up a tarpon 160 last year when I found out it was discontinued and I worry we won’t see another kayak like it. Does anyone think there will ever be a demand for big water long distance kayaks in the future? The trident 15 was discontinued the brought back into production. But most dealers won’t carry them. Let’s start a topic. What was your FIRST kayak and current kayak? Is there anything you miss about the more simple kayaks?


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[bassguy84]

My original and still used kayak is a wilderness systems ride 135. I got it a long time ago before gravity seats and and the track systems. Being one of the early big wide kayaks I think it really helped me grow into the sport. Being stable and able to take on lakes to the ocean it was great to use where ever. The downside to this was I am a car top guy. Being close to 90 it is pretty awkward lifting it up especially after a long day on the water. As I'm moving forward to a new platform soon. I think comfort and weight would be the next two important factors besides stability for my next yak. I have thought about getting a longer kayak like the tarpon mainly for trolling. I think it really comes down to what kind of fishing you want to do. Stand and sight cast or paddle and troll. I think both are good for their own reasons.

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[Mark]

Smaller and simple paddle kayaks are still being made but they are too wide in my opinion and still too heavy. I would not want any kayak with a beam greater than 34 or 35 inches.

My first kayak was a 2012 Revo. At the time I bought it, I also considered an Outback. I went with the Revo because it weighed less than the Outback. At that time the Revo was advertised at 63 pounds. Now I have a 2018 Revo and that boat weighs 70 pounds according to specs but I think it's more. The extra weight came from the new and improved seat configuration. The hull lines remained the same -- slim and long, 29 inch beam and slightly over 13 feet long. It's my missile in the water. And it's surprisingly stable. Cross my fingers, I have never rolled it and I have been in some really choppy water with it.

I still have the 2018 Revo. I use it primarily in big water in the Bay.

By far, I paddle my two Native Ultimate kayaks more than I pedal the Revo. I use them in tidal creeks and ponds. They're both 12 footers with beams of about 31 inches. They paddle easy and they're plenty stable and they both weigh under 60 pounds. Native advertises that you can stand in them but I never do.

I've owned a Jackson kayak that had a much wider beam than the Revo or Ultimate. To me it was like paddling a barge compared to my other boats. It was also nearly 75 pounds.

You cannot escape the laws of hydrodynamics. The wider the beam, the more effort is needed to paddle or pedal a kayak, length being equal. I'd rather spend that effort on casting, not getting from point A to point B.

Kayak makers and prospective buyers really worry themselves with stability -- more than they should, in my opinion. The makers advertise stability. Yet they surely know that narrower beams make lighter, less expensive hulls and are stable enough for most kayak fishing applications. They also know that many new kayak anglers don't know that. That's why they emphasize stability.

I'm not a kayak angler who's going miles from shore in heavy seas. Those who do need wide-beamed hulls. I'm careful about where I fish and when I fish. I pay close attention to the elements. I fish shallow waters near land the vast majority of times. To me, that's what a kayak is best suited for. At some point, I think kayak anglers have to seriously ask themselves if they would be safer in a boat. I don't put myself in situations that require that question.

So, narrow-beamed boats are fine for me. But they are getting harder to find other than the ones I own.

[Rudy]

Will we ever go back?

Jackson Discontinue the Kraken 15.5 with 29” beam. This is why I went looking for another and ended up finding a 2017 demo in Virginia. There seems to be a trend to head in the direction driven by market for a almost mini bass boat ideology. If you look at what is coming out with squared back trolling motor driven fishing rigs. At some point I believe their will be a revival of big open water kayaks. For those who realize speed, track, and ability to handle rough water is something some of us enjoy in a kayak. Just like with Hobie and the migration back to Outback from PA14. I look forward to how all the other kayak manufacturers answer the big salt boat question.


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[FishMoken]

Will we ever go back?

My only fear is these big water paddlers boats are going away. The thresher, tarpon 160, emotion grand slam, moken 14, kraken 13.5 and 15.5,cuda 14, trident ultras, and even the trident 15 was discontinued.

Johnson outdoors has gotten rid of the Necky brand of touring kayaks, and moved some touring style of kayaks over to old town.

I get that most new kayakers favor stability over padding speed as most kayakers aren’t going over 10+ miles a day. Also I’m sure storage for these larger kayaks can be tricky. As well as the take over from peddle driven kayaks have made there mark on the paddling community. I myself sold my slayer 13 for a revo 13 due to not wanting to car top a 90lb kayak.

Hopefully these company’s will be able to keep molds on sight to be able to make a new kayak per custom order. That I would pay extra for that. As far as I know Jackson does offer this with the kraken line.


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[Rudy]

Jackson would not make a Kraken for me last month but hopefully after their recover from the Covid backlog.


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[jsnyd86]

I like this discussion!
Some friends and I were just joking about me selling my old Cuda 14, and never going back to paddling. One is a die hard paddler. Through him, and learning the hard way, I've learned to appreciate skinny paddle yaks. My first kayak was a 14' Native Ultimate-Tandem. I feel it was the perfect beginner yak for me at the time, but I didn't have it long. They're great kayaks, its just that being a noobie I was quickly distracted by all the opportunities and "fishability" of a super wide and stable Malibu Stealth 12. I fell right into that trap and thought I needed to stand. That thing was a tank. Stable as all hell, but what a PITA to paddle. I think that's when my priorities really started to shift. I did some great fishing in that Stealth. I had to pay the price though. Many miles of kicking myself in the butt because standing was #1 priority. It's so over-hyped its almost a pet-peeve of mine now.
Around that same time, switching to a mirage drive was still considered going to the "dark side". To me that's pretty amusing considering how far kayaks have come in just a few years. Peddling is one thing. If you want you can rig yourself up a nice bass boat basically. And a new "dark side" making a big push. Motorized kayaks. I'd be lying if I didn't want one ;P Luckily they're too much to justify for my price range, but it makes me wonder where this is all going. No doubt catering to the masses and trying to put as many butts in seats as possible. I get it though. More attention to the sport is great. The worst part IMO is discontinuing the models mentioned previously. Iconic models that really helped put kayak fishing on the map. I'm pretty disappointed with that. Not that a Cuda was Iconic, but it took me a really long time to sell it, knowing I could never buy another.
For now, Im happy with my Revo13. I love it. Lightweight, lightening speed, cuts through chop, can fish it anywhere, and just big enough to carry the essentials. Whenever I buy another kayak, it will be for simplicity, without a doubt.

[Mark]

I can see a need for longer slimmer paddle kayaks for those who venture offshore. They go far and they want to get there with minimal effort. The other hydrodynamic principle that cannot be ignored is length. Longer kayaks are faster and easier to paddle or pedal, width being equal. The problem is that makers are adding too much beam to their longer and shorter fishing kayaks. They're making beasts on land and on the water.

The other thing that fishing kayak makers are consumed with is double hulled kayaks. That probably gets back to the stability issue. Kayaker anglers worried about getting wet want to both sit up high and have a boat that they can climb back into should it swamp or roll -- a Sit-on-Top (SOT) kayak. But with the added deck and the scuppers comes extra weight. I don't know of any rotomolded double-hulled 12 foot kayak under 60 pounds. Even the 10 and 11 footers exceed 60 pounds for the most part. In fact, most basic fishing SOT kayaks today are actually closer to 70 pounds. And some of the fancy ones with the frills of deck storage compartments and built-in rod holders are over 90 pounds.

Native's insecurity about its Ultimate kayak model is a perfect example of makers both fighting and driving the market. They have discontinued their single-hulled regular 49 pound Ultimate 12 two times in recent years. They still make the 56 pound FX12 but for how long? Both of those kayaks have been long proven as simple, stable, narrow-beamed fishing kayaks. They have plenty of open deck space with comfortable seating. They can go anywhere in the right weather conditions. And they were/are affordable.

No doubt lagging sales figures drive Native's decisions. So we can only blame ourselves collectively as kayak anglers for demanding wider heavier double-hulled kayakers until we learn as most of us do (especially as we age) that lighter, narrower kayaks serve our needs better. Perhaps Native will keep its Ultimate molds just in case.

So, will we go back? Right now, it seems unlikely. The trend has been toward larger boats for the 10 years that I have been kayak fishing. The good news is that with minimal care, our kayaks last a long time. I suspect that my smaller lighter kayaks will retain a higher value on the used market than newer bigger kayaks as they age for knowing kayak anglers who value simplicity and performance over perceived seaworthiness.

[jbrown]

In 1996 I purchased my first sit on top kayak for fishing. It was an ocean kayak. Wonderful hull design – just a bit over 12 feet. I remember the very bright dealer telling me that you want good tracking when kayaking. He was right. It is still a wonderful boat and my son uses it when I use my Hobie outback which is a very good combination of tracking yet with stability. I do not attempt to stand on it to fly fish et cetera. I can cover the entire bay at the Bay Bridge in rather rough seas with stability and tracking. Big heavy boats over ninety pounds with tons of rigging and now people attaching electric motors it’s just not kayaking to me. And I would say if you are not in good enough shape to roll it and get back into it yourself you should stay very close to shore in shallow/ warm water. I would also say that if you can’t get it done with two fishing rods and one Plano tacklebox box then you are over geared. Anything more you may wanna consider a boat and trailer. Nothing out fishes a kayak trolling 2 miles an hour for stripers. Love it!


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[Turtle]

Funny timing or just great minds thinking alike: 30milesout, a youtube channel thats been doing kayak fishing content since before I've been in the game just posted a video about the Ocean Scupper Pro being one of his favorite kayaks for getting around quickly, similar to a lot of the thoughts on here.

I agree with most of the thoughts on here and really love my Trident. Some days I do consider "the dark side" of a peddle yak, but haven't bit that bullet yet... though if I were to do so, I think I'd be more into the Revo end of the spectrum rather than the PA-17 end.

I wonder if our bias in this area is mainly that a lot of us in MD/VA/etc have access to the bay, brackish rivers, and sometimes the ocean. If this forum was for folks located in the center of the country and more freshwater fishing dominated (not that there aren't some good freshwater threads on here), I wonder if the big, borderline bass boat style kayaks would be our top picks. My long skinny kayak is great on bay type waters, but on the rare occasion that I'm trying to bass fish a lake, spinning it around on a dime, anchoring, standing etc aren't exactly its strong suites.

[Big Mike]

Oh how I love the petite folks who aren’t as my mom affectionately terms me, husky. Put my rear end in a Revo and I’m a semi-submersible Colombian drug running boat. I fished an Old Town camper canoe for 30 years. Why, stability and I didn’t stand in it. When I switched I went PA-14 not because I could stand but because of the space, stability, hands free and load capacity. I’m a minimalist fisherman, no FF, rarely more than my Tupperware of paddle tails, not even a rod holder because I fish rod in hand, so I don’t need all the room in the PA, but I do enjoy it.

Everyone has their own interpretation of kayak fishing. While I don’t use a motor I fish with folks who do. I don’t look down on them, it’s just another means of getting out and enjoying the water. I trail behind the Outback crowd as we head off to our spots, but I’ve rarely felt like I missed out by not being there first. Heck, many times I pick up fish they blew past.

They make many different kayaks for many different purposes, none optimum for everything. Enjoy what you enjoy and recognize that there are many motivations behind why someone picks the kayak they did. Some physical, some where they want to fish, some budgetary, and some just because. But by all means, use what you’ve got. Nothing worse than that lonely kayak laying in the backyard unused.

[Mark]

I wonder if our bias in this area is mainly that a lot of us in MD/VA/etc have access to the bay, brackish rivers, and sometimes the ocean. If this forum was for folks located in the center of the country and more freshwater fishing dominated (not that there aren't some good freshwater threads on here), I wonder if the big, borderline bass boat style kayaks would be our top picks. My long skinny kayak is great on bay type waters, but on the rare occasion that I'm trying to bass fish a lake, spinning it around on a dime, anchoring, standing etc aren't exactly its strong suites.

I think this is a good point. Our preferred kayaks are ones that that are suited to our environment and as Big Mike pointed out, we need kayaks that are suited to our physical size.

The slender sub-30 inch beam of Hobie's Revolution has essentially been unchanged for 10 years, maybe more. Yet, I know that many kayak anglers who frequent the relatively calm protected waters of the Chesapeake Bay's tributaries believe that the Revo is a "turtle" waiting to happen. Initially, it feels tippy if you're used to a wider platform. You're definitely not surrounded by much deck as you can see in my signature photo. And you're going to get splashed. It's not a dry ride. But it really shines in choppy water where its secondary stability is incredible. In fact, as many of you know, Hobie is popular in Australia. If you read the product reviews from that country, the Revo is considered a top offshore kayak. I like mine, but I don't know that I trust it that much especially in waters where great white sharks swim.

[J.A. Veil]

I just listed my 15'3" long and 31" wide Native Ultimate FX15 Tandem Pro kayak for sale: http://www.snaggedline.com/showthrea...121#post172121. This kayak is long, slim, and fast with a 600-lb weight capacity, yet still is very stable and suitable for standing if desired. I have paddled it in 3-ft seas at Pt Lookout. The boat handled that water well. It is also a fish-catching machine with several highly productive days last fall. It is too long and heavy for my tastes, but others in this thread seem to have some interest in that type of boat.

[ronaultmtd]

Every year they come out with new features, new technology, new designs...like computers and cellphones...I still have my old Iphone 7...love my 2016 Hobie Outback...do not want to sell it and get a new one- perfectly satisfied with everything about it. Like Big Mike advises...to each their own...whatever makes you happy, tickles the hell out of me...peddle, paddle, motor- all good...my way of fishing suits me...no motor- all human powered...turned 75 this year so don't know how many more fishing season are in my hourglass, but going to push on until I can't anymore...my typical day is early morning launch at daylight and fish until the slack tide...love my Lowrance Hook 2-7TS...consider it an essential tool that I attribute a lot of my successes to...if there are any...typical trip is 4 -5 miles on the GPS...no advice other than get out on the water and experience the pros and cons of different kayaks- there has never been and never will be one perfect for everything kayak...

[scorchy]

I was thinking about this thread yesterday when I was shopping for a shorter kayak to supplement my Manta Ray 14 (which is only 28.5" wide). Pretty much every new boat I researched was 32" - 36" wide. Hell, the Bona Fide model I sat in didn't even rock when sitting on a concrete floor. I'm super happy with the Native Falcon I bought but would loved to have had the option of an 11-12 foot kayak that was 30 inches or less in width.