Getting started with clousers/deceivers what size?

[kramer_]

Hi,
What size hooks do you recommend I start with.? To start, I would prefer 1 size for stripers, and 1 size for other tidal/freshwater species.
I was thinking about using the mustad 3407.
Thanks!

[Mark]

kramer,

Welcome to the forum.

That's a good hook and a good size. You could actually increase the size for stripers but they'll hit the size 1.

I tied Clousers last Saturday at a CCA event in Mt. Airy. The CCA supplied the materials and hooks and then gave the flies away to show attendees.

I tied a bunch of these for the giveaway on Mustad's 34007 hook in size 1/0:

Clousers for CCA.jpg

The 34007 is a stainless steel hook. I typically do not use stainless hooks so it would not have been my hook of choice.

Bob Clouser himself used to tie his smallmouth Clousers on Mustad's 3366 which is a bronzed hook:

https://www.amazon.com/Mustad-Classi.../dp/B00DSPQWLK

I've used it for making Clousers for fresh and tidal fishing. It's a less expensive hook than the 3407 or 34007 and works well everything I target with a fly rod including stripers.

[Mark]

kramer,

Welcome to the forum.

The 3407 is a good hook and the size 1 will work for stripers. You could actually move up to a 1/0 if you want a fly with a slightly larger profile.

I tied a bunch of Clouser Minnows last Saturday at a CCA event in Mt. Airy. Here's one I tied on a Mustad 34007, size 1/0:

Clousers for CCA.jpg

The CCA provided the materials and the hooks and then gave the flies as door prizes to show attendees. The 34007 is a stainless steel hook and would not have been my choice. I do not like to fish with stainless steel hooks.

Bob Clouser himself originally tied his smallmouth Clousers on Mustad's 3366, which is a bronzed hook.

https://www.amazon.com/Mustad-Classi.../dp/B00DSPQWLK

That's my preference. It's less expensive than the 3407 or 34007 and works well for the fish I catch on the fly in fresh and tidal waters, including stripers.

Good luck,

[dirtyjake237]

Hi Kramer and welcome

I think you have a great choice in hook and Mark's recommendations are all spot on in my opinion. I have tied clousers on many different size hooks and they work well regardless of size. I think it is due to the fact that the deer hair seems to hide or mask the point of the hook and the gap to shank length are just about perfect. I truly believe this is the "genius" behind a great easy to duplicate fly like the clouser.
Just like Mark I really prefer the 1/0 size and it is my go to clouser size for rockfish, red drum, speckled trout, chain pickerel, bluefish and all the way up to Spanish mackerel and false albacore. The only reason I would go down a hook size would be to throw a smaller fly with a 5wt and the only reason I would go up to a 2/0 would be the expectation of needing the largest fly possible and using a 10wt to heave it out there.
I also echo again that Mark is spot on with saving some $$$ and not needing a SS hook for clousers. It is my experience that the deer hair is not the most durable material and when combined with how effective the clouser is I rarely see a fly make it through the whole day..... sometimes when it gets real crazy fish hitting every cast I'll go through 3 or 4 flies in a couple hours.

As for the deceiver I also start at the 1/0 and move up from there sometimes to much bigger 4/0 or even 5/0 when I want to imitate larger peanut bunker / menhaden. Again expecting to throw a 10wt to heave the larger fly at some what larger rockfish. Once again the deceiver is a "brilliant" pattern where a wide gap short shank hook allows us to use saddle hackles and not have them "foul" or wrap around the hook shank while casting. A size 1/0 deceiver will create a slighter larger profile and length of fly than a 1/0 clouser so if I need a bigger fly I go with a deceiver type pattern.

All that being said I do prefer the action and depth control, not to mention the hook upward position for shallow water and or weeded areas that the lead eye position of the clouser provides and over the years like many other fishermen I have gotten very lazy. So now what I create and fish mostly is a size 1/0 half and half; white saddle hackle, chartreuse buck-tail a little flash to taste with a red lead eye. This is my go to starting point fly and I'll adjust from there as the day progresses. I would say 90% of the fish I catch are on this fly of this size, not just because it is the first or only fly I use but because it is close enough to so many baits out there in the bay and near shore Atlantic. It can mimic shrimp, large anchovy, peanut bunker or just about any bait-fish. The other joy of this fly is that it is just as effective in fresh water for pickerel and SM or LM bass. If I am targeting smaller fresh water species like crappie or tidal water white perch then I switch up to a bead head wooly bugger.

so I'll give 3 flies and sizes.
most useful size 1/0 half and half the only reason not to use this fly is if you are getting short strikes or the fish have a smaller mouth than the hook gap.
So switch up to a size 1 wooly bugger.
option 3 if the bunker is getting really big or you are not interested in catching any more dinks then switching up to a large fly will help. I go to a 4/0 deceiver or EP fiber minnow. This way it scares the little 12 inchers away and gives the bigger fish a chance. The big ones are lazier just like me and tend to hang below the frenzy, so I'll chuck the big fluf and let is sink down..... every now and again I get surprised and a 24+ inch fish is lurking below the blues and other smaller fry.
Hope this helps and good luck with your patterns.

[Mark]

...not needing a SS hook for clousers. It is my experience that the deer hair is not the most durable material and when combined with how effective the clouser is I rarely see a fly make it through the whole day..... sometimes when it gets real crazy fish hitting every cast I'll go through 3 or 4 flies in a couple hours...

Bingo!

Flies are expendable, especially for tidal fish and toothy fish. The materials wrapped on a hook will give up long before the hook itself rusts.

Another reason I don't like to use stainless steel is because I don't want to leave hardware that won't rust out in a fish that breaks me off.

Lastly, I cited Amazon as a source of the Mustad 3366, which is my preferred Clouser hook. Some of the reviewers rated it low because they said it was dull. Anglers would do well to check the sharpness of all brands of hooks they use fresh out of the package. Most new hooks that I've come across benefit from a good sharpening. Experienced anglers know that. I keep a sharpening stone on my tying table and carry another one with me in my PFD.

[kramer_]

Mark and Jake,
Thanks for the info. I will be putting in my Amazon order shortly for the 3366.

Any recommendations on what (and where on the internet) bucktail hair to purchase?

[Mark]

kramer,

I've ordered from this company and been pleased with their products:

https://www.jsflyfishing.com/

But there are many fly fishing/lure making suppliers on-line.

I've dealt with these folks too:

https://www.jannsnetcraft.com/

https://www.barlowstackle.com/

In truth, I usually do not buy bucktail on-line. I like to see them before I buy them because they have different textures. I look for ones with softer hair because I think they make flies with a more natural movement in the water. I therefore usually pick them out at Bass Pro or local other tackle shops.

[kevinfry]

Anyone else use red hooks....they have worked well for me

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[Mark]

I've used them with jigs I've poured:

red hooks.jpg

I've never tried them on flies.

[dirtyjake237]

Anyone else use red hooks....they have worked well for me

Wow you are pulling out all the tricks Kevin!!
Yes I do and also agree 100% that they do work well for me too. I use them most often with a larger deceiver or EP super fiber bunker pattern in about a size 4/0 or 5/0. I started this habit out of laziness, most of the bunker patterns I was tying all had a small tuft of red up near the head of the fly... to mimic gills. I noticed that the deceiver and bunker pattern hooks bent right at the same location and ..... light bulb my lazy butt starting saving time and material with red hooks. I also believe that is why I/we use red eyes in most clousers, from the side the predator sees eyeballs and the prey swimming in that direction forward. when the fly is swimming away and the predator gets the view from the back, it sees red where the gills are suppose to be and says good I can attack/ambush from behind and the prey can't see me anymore.
Kevin you have some spooky ability to think like a fish both predator and prey. Some fish and marine animals take this to the extreme and mimic eyes on the wrong end, one that I'm sure we have all seen is the red drum..... why do they have a spot on their tail?????? so that the small fry juvenile fish can confuse predators or so that the adults can confuse prey to swim behind them and avoid the mouth???? Then just when they thought they escaped...... OH NO IT EATS WITH IT'S BUTT!!!! LOLOL Predators often wait until the prey isn't looking to attack it increases the success rate for expending energy, look at those farmers who wear masks on the back of their head so tigers don't ambush them from behind. I'm just glad I don't feel the need to have eyes in the back of my head.

[DanMarino]

[kevinfry]

Wow you are pulling out all the tricks Kevin!!
Yes I do and also agree 100% that they do work well for me too. I use them most often with a larger deceiver or EP super fiber bunker pattern in about a size 4/0 or 5/0. I started this habit out of laziness, most of the bunker patterns I was tying all had a small tuft of red up near the head of the fly... to mimic gills. I noticed that the deceiver and bunker pattern hooks bent right at the same location and ..... light bulb my lazy butt starting saving time and material with red hooks. I also believe that is why I/we use red eyes in most clousers, from the side the predator sees eyeballs and the prey swimming in that direction forward. when the fly is swimming away and the predator gets the view from the back, it sees red where the gills are suppose to be and says good I can attack/ambush from behind and the prey can't see me anymore.
Kevin you have some spooky ability to think like a fish both predator and prey. Some fish and marine animals take this to the extreme and mimic eyes on the wrong end, one that I'm sure we have all seen is the red drum..... why do they have a spot on their tail?????? so that the small fry juvenile fish can confuse predators or so that the adults can confuse prey to swim behind them and avoid the mouth???? Then just when they thought they escaped...... OH NO IT EATS WITH IT'S BUTT!!!! LOLOL Predators often wait until the prey isn't looking to attack it increases the success rate for expending energy, look at those farmers who wear masks on the back of their head so tigers don't ambush them from behind. I'm just glad I don't feel the need to have eyes in the back of my head.

Yeah they seem to work....speaking of eye marks on tail.....once in the Rio Dulce in Guatemala I saw a large "mojarra" with eye spots on the tail heard a group of minnow s into an inlet by shore and, having them confused, patiently ate them one by one....amazing, like a cowboy hearing cattle.....also you give me too much credit, red hooks were on sale.....haha

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[Mark]

I've never used red hooks on flies and frankly notice no difference in hookups with the ones I use on jigs.

However, I use red thread for the vast majority of flies I tie. Somewhere along the line long ago I heard or read that putting a red head on a streamer fly simulates flaring gills which may serve as an attractant. I figure the red cannot hurt.